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  • Adding Images in Posts

      In order to add an image to a discussion, you need to first have a url to the image. This means that you have to upload the image to somewhere on the internet.


      One easy way to do this is to use www. www.postimage.com.


      You need to upload your image (remember anyone can see the image by reading a posting here, or other methods). After you upload the image you need to copy the 'html' line and paste it into a discussion comment.


      Here is the format of an image in html. (only needed if you do not use postimage.org)


      <img src="http://site.com/pictlink.jpg"/>


      This forum does not use BBCode - rather it uses html.


      --Tom

  • Adding Link

      You can add a link to a posting: Copy the template below, and replace xxx with the URL, and yyy with what you want to call it (which can be the same as the URL).

      <a href="xxx">yyy</a>

      --Tom

Ironic's community site has been set up for support and discussion. Please feel free to join and offer your ideas and solutions. Anyone can add a comment or question to a discussion topic that is already listed. In order to start a new discussion, you need to be member. Membership is easy.

    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    > Tag… you're IT! 8^)

    I accept your challenge. 8^b

    > And why are you so concerned with a large tag list?

    I've said it over and over....at least I think I have. If your tag list is large, then you will spend time searching for your tags in order to search your files. And, isn't searching for your files what it is all about?

    > It is obvious that your workflow and experience is centered around text based documents, most of which can be handily indexed by Spotlight. So for you a contents based search makes sense.

    My philosophy doesn't depend on a content-based workflow. It would work in your situation as well. Let me use your example of photos. I would tag in broad terms (I'm not a photographer, so don't critique the tags, they're just ideas) like, locations, portraits, products, ads, artistic, women, men, etc. I would have all the tags that I as a photographer could readily have on the tips of my fingers. So, if I have a photo in my virtual clip file that is an ad for vacationing in Barbados in which there was a Redhead on the beach at sunset with a boat and fisherman nearby, then I would tag it @photo, @ads, @locations, and @women. Then, in the comments I would place redhead, Barbados, fishermen, boat. So, then when I look for this file, I select the tags @photo, @ads, and @women (because that's probably what I remember) and then in the Comments search box type "red beach" and I would probably get to this file quickly.

    In my opinion, by doing this one has eliminated the likelihood of getting an unwieldy taglist and have sacrificed nothing, but gained efficiency.

    Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    I'm either stupid or misunderstanding something here (hey, watch it! 8^)

    You say"… I would tag it @photo, @ads, etc." Then you say "…then in the Comments" Are you talking about using the Description in Leap? Or, do you have Leap not writing to Spotlight comments, tagging in Leap, and adding non-tag comments in the Get Info window for a file? Or, do you actually add the tag as "@photo" and end up with a Spotlight Comment tag as "@@photo"? If Leap is set to write to Spotlight Comments then any file you tag will have it in the Spotlight Comments. Are you appending the comments manually?
    Help me… I'm confused now!

    PS: Did you try my test?
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    Jim,

    You edited your file after I started my reply. Let me address your test.

    It's too small of a sample. And, you probably limited the search to the Desktop. And, your text that your are searching is so specific that it's likely nowhere else on your computer.

    What I want would be written "name:em name:ch name:smi name:bo argh"

    What I'm saying is that your test really wasn't a true test.

    This is what I stated much earlier in this thread:
    "Searching for "contractor" in a filename search and then having a separate contents search for "MtnView Smith" IS NOT the same as a combined filenames and contents search of "contractor MtnView Smith." In the latter case (the current Leap methodology) lots of files might match because "contractor" may appear in the CONTENTS of many unrelated files."

    I hope this helps.

    Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    True my sample is small (that doesn't sound very nice!) 8^) so I made a small adjustment…

    Same file names as before. Fred's file now has the word "Applescript" and Bob's has "Javascript". These files have been tossed randomly into my user account (not root or just one level down either).
    A "Go Deep" on my user account finds Fred's file with these search terms are: name:em ch fre smi apple.

    Not an ideal experiment but useful considering the amount of files I found when "smi" wasn't included.

    I do understand what you're saying, btw - just working through what Leap is up to for myself. It may not be exactly what you're looking for but I am pretty impressed with the change so far.
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008 edited
     
    >I'm either stupid or misunderstanding something here (hey, watch it! 8^)

    > You say"… I would tag it @photo, @ads, etc." Then you say "…then in the Comments" Are you talking about using the Description in Leap? Or, do you have Leap not writing to Spotlight comments, tagging in Leap, and adding non-tag comments in the Get Info window for a file? Or, do you actually add the tag as "@photo" and end up with a Spotlight Comment tag as "@@photo"? If Leap is set to write to Spotlight Comments then any file you tag will have it in the Spotlight Comments. Are you appending the comments manually?
    > Help me… I'm confused now!

    I have Read/Write Tags set in Preferences. But, you can add NON-PREPENDED data to Comments via Get Finder Info. I'm not sure what adding data to Description does. And, if you have Default Folder X like I have, you can add these comments as you save.

    Keep in mind the following: Spotlight Comments are for comments not tags. However, since most developers don't want to write an mdimporter for every conceivable filetype, so that accessing the Keywords Metadata field (where tags SHOULD go) is possible, developers have chosen to prepend words found in Spotlight Comments as tags using Spotlight Comments as the housing for tags - though that is not its intended purpose.

    Ok, given that, let's move on. Text in contents is one level. Text in Spotlight Comments is a higher level. This tells us things more important than the things in the text. For example, the text "beach" in Spotlight Comments is more important than the text "beach" in the contents of a file. Why? Because there could be hundreds of files with the word "beach" in which "beach" is not an integral part of the file. But, a file with "beach" in the Spotlight Comments tells us that "beach" is integral to the file.

    Further, tags are classifications that are higher than Spotlight Comments.

    So, the art of finding files comes down to narrowing using the available data items like tags, comments, filetype, filenames, and lastly contents.

    I hope this helps.

    Matt
    • CommentAuthorAddie
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    incredible! i've never thought of nameing, saving, tagging files in such a holistic manner like 2mc is suggestng. that makes so much sense.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    True, you can add data to the Comment field but the question is: should you? In the workflows I design this would be a terribly inefficient step to add. (BTW, I have serious problems with DefaultFolder's basic logic in their implementation but that's for another day!)

    While kMDItemKeywords seem to be the best (?) choice for metadata, Apple itself does not follow its own example. Keywords applied in iPhoto are not written there! xattr support is enhanced in Leopard but still not officially advocated. Short of taking a cue from the BeOS I think we have to live with these roll-your-own partial solutions for now.

    It seems like you've been reading ontology discussions! 8^)

    Ok, given that, let's move on. Text in contents is one level. Text in Spotlight Comments is a higher level. This tells us things more important than the things in the text. For example, the text "beach" in Spotlight Comments is more important than the text "beach" in the contents of a file. Why? Because there could be hundreds of files with the word "beach" in which "beach" is not an integral part of the file. But, a file with "beach" in the Spotlight Comments tells us that "beach" is integral to the file.

    I agree that text in a Comment is more useful than text in Contents in the first course of a search. But whether we want to just call it a semantic argument or not, what you call Comments, I call Tags - only mine are prefixed comments to avoid the vagaries of Spotlight finding Contents. I see no other realistic distinction between the two regardless if the mechanisms are different. Some apps write "Tags" to kMDItemKeywords (Journler is a prime example). People don't say "Wait, that's not a Tag - that's a Keyword!" (especially given that Journler calls them Tags as well!) Tags, Keywords - tomato, tomahta - this is the view of the users.

    I appreciate your clear dissection of the matter: species, genus, phylum, and so on but I don't believe the distinction between Tags and Comments as described here to be logical.
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    Jim,

    > True, you can add data to the Comment field but the question is: should you?

    I had to laugh at this one. Surely, you meant "you can add TEXT" and not data; since tags are data, you seem to advocate getting rid of tags!! <g>

    I also had to laugh, because the very name of the field tells you it's purpose. A better question would be, "True, you can add tags to the Comment field, but the question is: should you?"

    > I see no other realistic distinction between the two regardless if the mechanisms are different.

    What?!? No distinctions other than type and mechanism? "Yes, Mrs. Smith, other than he's male, green, and a reptile, I see no distinction between you and Bob, the alligator." bwahahahahahahahahaha

    Since I know of no OS or file format that adds tags as metadata saved with the file, I consider tags and keywords synonyms.

    > In the workflows I design this would be a terribly inefficient step to add.

    As opposed to the terrible inefficiencies of an overwhelming, out-of-control list of tags?

    > BTW, I have serious problems with DefaultFolder's basic logic in their implementation

    Methinks you protest too much. Which is more difficult? Add comments and tags at the time of saving? Or, navigating to Leap, finding the file, then right-clicking the file, finding the tag to use in the list, and adding it?

    And, what would you lose by eliminating the "@" or the "&" in the majority of your "tags" and leaving them as comments? You'd lose nothing and gain efficiency.

    But, perhaps you're speaking in support of Leap's current offering.

    Matt
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    Just another quick thought:

    You have to right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, etc. for as many tags as you want to add. How is that any more efficient than right-clicking once and selecting Get Finder Info and typing prepended and non-prepended text all at once? Plus the added benefit of cleaning up that overbearing list of tags everyone has.

    Matt
    • CommentAuthorAddie
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    "I appreciate your clear dissection of the matter: species, genus, phylum, and so on but I don't believe the distinction between Tags and Comments as described here to be logical."

    dude- looks pretty logical to me
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    Surely, you meant "you can add TEXT" and not data; since tags are data, you seem to advocate getting rid of tags!!
    This is another circular argument. Tags are data?! Of course they are… so are comments. So is my phone number in the phone book. And where am I advocate getting rid of tags? You are the one with the disdain for tags in favor of what you call Comments (though they are also functionally tags when used singly in the Spotlights Comment field!)
    because the very name of the field tells you it's purpose.
    That makes no sense! According to your argument College Ruled paper is unusable by high school students!
    As opposed to the terrible inefficiencies of an overwhelming, out-of-control list of tags?
    or out of control filenaming conventions?
    Or, navigating to Leap, finding the file, then right-clicking the file, finding the tag to use in the list, and adding it?
    Wow! I think you need to spend a lot more time with Leap if this is what you're doing!
    And, what would you lose by eliminating the "@" or the "&" in the majority of your "tags" and leaving them as comments? You'd lose nothing and gain efficiency.
    This is patently untrue! Unless you have 1000s's of documents with "@photo" in its Contents then using the prefix is a fairly decent solution to avoiding a contents based result. Unless you think getting false positives is efficient.

    You have to right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, etc. for as many tags as you want to add. How is that any more efficient than right-clicking once and selecting Get Finder Info and typing prepended and non-prepended text all at once? Plus the added benefit of cleaning up that overbearing list of tags everyone has.
    This is not the best (or only) way to tag in Leap (there are several). And you still have not made a logical argument for, as you call it, "preprended text" versus "non-prepended text". I have been rereading earlier comments on both sides and I still don't see the advantage of your "non-prepended text".

    @Addie: I'm glad it makes sense to you. I still don't buy it. Just because something is "clearly dissected" doesn't imply it's any truer (as my opinion doesn't make my side either).
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    >> Surely, you meant "you can add TEXT" and not data; since tags are data, you seem to advocate getting rid of tags!!
    > This is another circular argument. Tags are data?! Of course they are… so are comments. So is my phone number in the phone book.
    > And where am I advocate getting rid of tags? You are the one with the disdain for tags in favor of what you call Comments
    > (though they are also functionally tags when used singly in the Spotlights Comment field!)

    Apparently, I wasn't clear. I'll try to make it clear. You stated: "True, you can add data to the Comment field but the question is: should you?" Based on what you said following this question, I took your question to be a rhetorical one, with the unspoken answer being "no, you shouldn't." I tried to point out that tags are data, therefore you were unfortunately making an argument against the use of tags in the Comment field. To make it painfully clear, substituting "tags" for "data" and one has the rhetorical question: "you can add tags to the Comment field but the question is: should you?" I think you'll agree that I wasn't making a circular argument, much less another one (for I don't ever remember making a circular argument before in this thread).

    >> because the very name of the field tells you it's purpose.
    > That makes no sense! According to your argument College Ruled paper is unusable by high school students!

    I fail to understand what doesn't make sense. The name of the field is "Spotlight COMMENTS" and not "Spotlight TAGS." The purpose of the field is comments, not tags. If I have been misled, I have been misled by Apple. And, I further pointed out that developers have adapted the use of the Comments field to house tags, which really should go in the metadata keywords field. I fail to see how this makes "no sense" and I fail to see the applicability of your analogy.

    > or out of control filenaming conventions?

    But, isn't everyone's filenaming convention out of control? Isn't that why we need Leap? Didn't I admit earlier that I only have a structure on my work files. That convention has been forced on me; and I admitted that for all other files, I'm in the same boat as everyone else. But, searching for an name in an out-of-control filenaming system leads me to the file directly, whereas searching for a tag among the out-of-control taglist takes me to the tag (which I can then take to help me get the file). Again, I don't think the charge sticks.

    > Wow! I think you need to spend a lot more time with Leap if this is what you're doing!

    So, you're tagging outside of Leap? Using file folder as tag via Hazel? Or, are you dragging files to the tag? Or, are you navigating to a just saved file and then dragging it to the drop zone? What if you didn't save it to the desktop and have to go find it? Regardless of how you do it, my point still stands regarding Default Folder X, it is simply adding tags as you save. You don't have to go anywhere. No, I think my point still stands about the relative ease of tagging Default Folder X.

    > This is patently untrue! Unless you have 1000s's of documents with "@photo" in its Contents then using the prefix is a fairly decent solution to avoiding a contents based result. Unless you think getting false positives is efficient.

    Well, I guess you missed my point..........again. Getting rid of the prepends just makes your tag list more manageable. The other nonprepend "tags" are still there easily found by a Comments search. So, you would gain efficiency in that you wouldn't have to search for tags to search for files, and by searching Comments you would get NO MORE FALSE POSITIVES than you would with your method.

    > And you still have not made a logical argument for, as you call it, "preprended text" versus "non-prepended text".

    Gosh, I don't know how I could make any more of a logical argument than I already have. Perhaps you think I advocate getting rid of all prepends. Perhaps you fail to see that searching in Comments for a nonprepended "tag" is essentially the same as searching for those same words prepended in your system (unless, of course, one goes on and on and on in the Comments field with useless information - then I would agree with you. But, that's not the case in the scenario I presented.) I have made a VERY logical case and even given several examples.

    I"m sorry if I've offended you.

    Matt
    • CommentAuthorAddie
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    2mc- stop you're goring his ox. oh the humanity! :-)
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    Addie, please don't say such things. This isn't a contest. Tagging can be a very personal thing. I'm advocating for way to narrow on filename ONLY and then on contents. He and Leap's developer's said they would still work on it. I'm grateful for that.

    Jim and I have been engaging in a philosophical debate. I only push hard to make sure my point is understood. I'm still not convinced that Jim is convinced that my approach will be better for him in his scenario. I firmly believe it would increase his efficiency; he firmly believes not. Of course, I'm right and he is wrong! j/k bwahahahahahahahahaha

    And, sometimes when I push hard, people misunderstand me. So, I'm hoping Jim hasn't misunderstood me.

    Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2008
     
    It still is all good, Matt!

    Trust me - I've been accused of pushing too hard in my life as well. And you're spot on… this is a philosophical debate. You should read S.I.Hayakawa's "Language In Thought and Action". Very interesting piece on how the words we choose can be misunderstood when their meaning is crystal clear to us! Nice read.

    I also know that experience is such a great dictator… I work with my system and I'm fast as he!! with it. Matt, you'd probably faint if you saw my tag list! But I would not fare as well with yours. Is either better or worse if both are fully functional for their desired purpose and fulfilling their expectations? No. Even if mine we're less efficient than what Matt demands of his (and it's not 8^), it's not meant to satisfy Matt, it's meant to satisfy me! (I think that's part of the beauty of where Leap is at - it's still young and flexible - there's no advocated method on how best to use it (and will there ever be, I don't know… or should there be?) It can be many things to many people. Which is why I wish people would respond to this post, dangit! 8^) You do what with it!?! - How do YOU use Leap). If we were working together then we'd have real problems because we would have to agree on a consistent workflow.

    What Matt has requested is beneficial for him (and to some other advocates) and is not detrimental to other users. I like what has happened with the new change but as Jonathon said "We're not done." So who knows where it will end!

    Respectfully,
    Jim
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    [Jim] Boy I haven't had fun like this since sjk came on board and we went back and forth about hierarchical filing systems! 8^)

    Thanks. :)

    I'll resist the temptation to connect that topic with this one, heh.

    [Matt] And, sometimes when I push hard, people misunderstand me.

    I sure can relate to that. I've gotten better at sensing when people feel/think I'm being too pushy and will usually back off, though it's still easy getting carelessly carried away when I'm passionate about something.

    I thoroughly enjoy intense technical discussions where no one's overly sensitive and taking issues personally, especially when there's mutual understanding of different views regardless of any (dis)agreements.
    •  
      CommentAuthorErikMH
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008 edited
     
    Fascinating discussion. I certainly hope that either Apple or "The Tagging Consortium" can provide us all with a consistent, open, and interchangeable mechanism for storing user-assigned tags (or keywords). And comments/descriptions, as well. It's too bad resource forks are deprecated in OS X.... Actually, what's really too bad is that we ended up with NEXTStep instead of BeOS as a basis for OS X. Ah, well....

    [Matt] You have to right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, right-click and select tag, etc. for as many tags as you want to add.

    I'm often in a position to enter tags in the Spotlight Comments field offered by Default Folder — but I'm often not. But I'd go nuts if I had to right-click and select a tag from a list each and every time I added a tag within Leap.

    Matt, you seam to know Leap very well — but it sounds like you might not know about bringing up a file's (or multiple files') tag list using <command>-T? Then just type the tag or tags and press <return>. This would seem moderately better than than "right-click, select, repeat" — but when combined with the preference "Suggest completions" in tag entry, I can't imagine a faster or more accurate way of assigning tags.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Ok, Ok… we are talking about entering tags in Leap, right!?!

    Select a file (or files) in the Documents window and hit Enter, not Return. The Tags HUD appears and you type, hit Enter, type Hit Enter, and hit Enter twice when you're done.
    You can also click the dash under the filename to bring up the HUD.

    Hitting Return brings up the Filename HUD for renaming a file. You can also click the Filename to bring up the HUD.

    There's a tooltip for each of these when you're over them.

    Now THAT is fast!
    •  
      CommentAuthorErikMH
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Hey wow! I can save one whole key by hitting <enter> instead of <command>-T. Cool beans!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Lol - I hope I didn't come off as condescending! I am just surprised how many people don't know that.

    Did you know can navigate in the Documents window by Arrow Keys (or by Tab which doesn't make sense to me but it follows Apple's convention)? Or by typing letters in a filename. There are plenty of ways to be faster!

    Enjoy!
    •  
      CommentAuthorErikMH
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
     
    No problem, Jim — I'm always happy to find out about more shortcuts. Frankly, saving one keystroke at a time in my workflow can really add up in applications that I "live in." Leap almost immediately became one of those!

    I knew about the arrow keys, and I use that feature a lot. And I'm especially happy that, if I'm using QuickLook, the arrow keys still work and QuickLook adjusts to show the newly selected file. Very nice (though, yes, I know that Leap's just following Apple's convention there too).

    Didn't know about typing initial filename letters. I could see that that would be helpful if I were ever sorting by filename. I'm almost invariably in list view in reverse chronological order, though, and typing initial letters results in a slightly schizoid-feeling (though entirely reasonable) UI response.

    <tab> doesn't seem to do here what you're describing. For me, it shifts the focus among the various panes: File list / Filename or Contents search field / Tag Filter. But to me that's good and much more useful than having another way to move among files.
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008 edited
     
    It's too bad resource forks are deprecated in OS X....

    Resource forks, like File Type & Creator codes, are another "classic" Mac OS feature I never understood very well or appreciated before using OS X. Seems they'd have been a better choice for Tag storage than current alternatives.

    Actually, what's really too bad is that we ended up with NEXTStep instead of BeOS as a basis for OS X.

    It was Open5tep for Mach by the time NeXTstep became the basis for OS X. I'd used NeXTstep on NeXT hardware (at Pixar) but never got around to trying BeOS since it wasn't as conveniently available. Maybe that's okay or I'd be doing some of that "really too bad… " lamenting now. :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorErikMH
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
     
    You're right about OpenStep, rather than NeXTStep, of course. I saw Steve Jobs introduce the NeXT computer and NeXTStep in Boston — back in, what, 1988? — and got totally hooked. Couldn't afford it though (still paying off the loan on my Mac!). Saw the BeOS and Be's hardware demoed at MacWorld/Boston, too. Can't remember when that was. Impressive, but then again I couldn't afford another machine....

    But here was the promise of BeOS:

    In BeOS, arbitrary arrays of meta-data can be associated with files or file types and stored as "attributes." These attributes can be sifted and sorted through in the Tracker, or queried for through the Find panel. Because attributes are indexed automatically, search results are instantaneous, regardless the amount of data to be searched. In essence, the file system itself serves as a database.

    Read more at Tales of a BeOS Refugee. They really "got" the whole metadata thing, and they didn't just integrate it into the operating system, they made it the cornerstone.

    Probably that's enough lamenting for this thread, though. Besides, I have to reboot: mds and mdworker are again taking up more than 100% of my laptop's CPU. :-/
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008 edited
     
    They really "got" the whole metadata thing, and they didn't just integrate it into the operating system, they made it the cornerstone.

    Smartly succinct way to summarize it. That's definitely the aspect of BeOS that, even without using it, I regret not having in OS X (nee NeXTstep/OpenStep).

    It's been awhile since I read Scot Hacker's BeOS Refugee and Reactions articles, around the time I realized I'd "outgrown" traditional file/folder management (with its oft-cumbersome location-centric decision-making processes) and started thinking more about possible metadata applicable alternatives. That's partly why apps like Leap (and, perhaps more importantly, their user communities) attract my attention, even if they have limited scope relative to more ubiquitous metadata/tagging concepts and prospects. And BeOS might be seen as one of the foreshadowings of whatever "it" is that's incubating and awaiting birth as … who can say? Though perhaps not nearly so dramatic. :)

    Sorry to hear about your mds/mdworker woes. I've been fortunate with Spotlight not giving me any serious trouble; usually it's just Finder crashing when attempting some more elaborate forms of searching.
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