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      In order to add an image to a discussion, you need to first have a url to the image. This means that you have to upload the image to somewhere on the internet.


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Leap 1: Quick question on how Leap applies tags?

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  1.  
    •  
      CommentAuthorJono
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008 edited
     
    I've been tagging for quite a long time & it's common knowledge that writing tags to Spotlight comments is less than ideal.

    I'm just wondering (in simple terms) how Leap does it? Am I right in thinking it does something to do with kMDItemKeywords, & also writes to Spotlight comments?
    If it does do something with kMDItemKeywords what is it actually? (Does it write them to the actual file, or are these tags/comments stored somewhere else?).
    If it does this & also writes to Spotlight comments is this (the Spotlight comments part) just so the tags can be searched in Finder, smart folders, others tagging apps etc. Or some other reason?


    One other (completely different) question...

    How do I create a folder in Leap?
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Jono,

    Tags are definitely not stored in kMDItemKeywords. If they were, you could open up Get Info on a file and see them listed. Or, you could open up the file itself and navigate to Properties (or whatever the particular program calls it) and not only see the tags, but add or delete them as well.

    Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Jono:

    To second what Matt said they are not writing to kMDItemKeywords. Many types of metadata are not written to the file itself but are written to a (usually proprietary) database, and sometimes more than one for speed of searching versus loading all data at runtime. This leads to two distinct problems:

    1. Lack of portability of tags. If my tags are written to a database locally, when you get the file there'll be no associated data with it. This is another reason the Spotlight Comments are used despite their faults. Generally, they have some measure of portability.

    2. Lack of a consistent standard of what is a tag, where is it stored, how are they handled, etc. Apple has given small morsels of help on it but has never really committed to supporting the tagging community. So each developer has rolled their own and we're all looking for consistency between these disparate ideas. Once again, that's where the Spotlight Comments have been used along with the prefixing convention (usually & or @). Most developers have given a nod to this because it the closest thing to a standard we have, though we all know it has its flaws.

    My 7 cents (sorry, taxes are high here!)

    Also, if you have the Location pane showing you can Right-click a folder in it and choose "New Folder…" from the context menu.
  4.  
    We have been asking for Apple to make a 'user entered tags' section of the info window in the Finder for some time now. Hopefully with Snow Leopard, there will be some progress here. The sad part is that Finder comments and Finder labels - the only user entered meta data right now, were introduced in system 7, and have had their day.

    kMDItemkeywords - these are keywords from inside the file itself, bee they keywords in PDFs, the 'keywords section' of an html file, keywords in a JPEG EXIF header, etc. There is no way to set kMDItemKeywords on an arbitrary file.
    Plus, these kMDItemkeywords are not always what a user wants as tags: For instance many html files have a hundred or more (sometimes useful) tags, and JPEGs from photo services can have many tags. I don't think that this is what you want mixed in with your hand entered tags.

    There are some very obvious ways to Apple to support this sort of thing, and I think that there may be progress here in the future.

    We are also working - hopefully with some other applications that are into tagging - on a standard method of setting user entered tags that we will open source, especially if Apple does not come up with a tagging standard for Snow Leopard. It involves extended attributes and some spotlight database calls.


    --Tom
    •  
      CommentAuthorBLUEFROG
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Off-topic… Jono? as in iconaholic Jono? as in the one who suggested the Silverflow UI for Quicksilver that Julius Eckert is working on? If so, hey, it's even nicer to have you here! I like your work!
    • CommentAuthor2mc
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008 edited
     
    > We are also working - hopefully with some other applications that are into tagging - on a standard method of setting user entered tags that we will open source, especially if Apple does not come up with a tagging standard for Snow Leopard. It involves extended attributes and some spotlight database calls.

    But, it absolutely must be saved with the file and not in the ds_store. There are Spotlight indexing issues with ds_store. And, there are problems with ds_store when syncing between computers. Tags will never be robust until they are in the file itself.

    Also, I disagree with your statement "I don't think that this is what you want mixed in with your hand entered tags" - prepended tags can co-exist with other "tags" or "keywords." You do it with Spotlight Comments all the time. So, your own statement argues against the very working of Leap.

    Matt
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008 edited
     
    [Tom] We are also working - hopefully with some other applications that are into tagging - on a standard method of setting user entered tags that we will open source, especially if Apple does not come up with a tagging standard for Snow Leopard. It involves extended attributes and some spotlight database calls.
    [Matt] But, it absolutely must be saved with the file and not in the ds_store. There are Spotlight indexing issues with ds_store. And, there are problems with ds_store when syncing between computers.

    Extended attributes aren't stored in .DS_Store files so I don't see how they relate to Tom's comment (interesting news; thanks).

    Tags will never be robust until they are in the file itself.

    That may not be entirely accurate depending on how you define "in the file itself". I'll leave it at that for now.

    [Matt] Also, I disagree with your statement "I don't think that this is what you want mixed in with your hand entered tags" - prepended tags can co-exist with other "tags" or "keywords." You do it with Spotlight Comments all the time.

    Maybe your view on mixing of tags with keywords (and Spotlight Comments) can be summarized with:

    You got peanut butter in my chocolate.
    You got chocolate in my peanut butter.
    Two great tastes that taste great together.

    [Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, if anyone's missed it :)]

    Wanted to slip in that quick reply since lately some of these discussions have been moving faster than I'm able to participate. :o
    •  
      CommentAuthorJono
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    Ah, thanks for explaining. So Leap uses Spotlight comments like most/all other tagging apps.


    My 7 cents (sorry, taxes are high here!)

    Don’t get me started. Here in the UK everything is expensive compared to (most of) the rest of the world ;)


    Also, if you have the Location pane showing you can Right-click a folder in it and choose "New Folder…" from the context menu.

    Thanks a lot, I knew it must be in there somewhere. I kept right clicking on folders in the main window expecting it to be there. Then selecting a folder in the main window & looking for it in the menu bar, then clicking on a folder in the location list & looking for it in the menu bar. I guess I tried every option apart from right clicking a folder in the location pane =o¿


    [tom.andersen]:
    Plus, these kMDItemkeywords are not always what a user wants as tags: For instance many html files have a hundred or more (sometimes useful) tags, and JPEGs from photo services can have many tags. I don't think that this is what you want mixed in with your hand entered tags.

    [2mc]:
    Also, I disagree with your statement "I don't think that this is what you want mixed in with your hand entered tags" - prepended tags can co-exist with other "tags" or "keywords." You do it with Spotlight Comments all the time. So, your own statement argues against the very working of Leap.

    I also use words or keywords in Spotlight comments without a prefix, as well as ones with the ‘&’ prefix (what I’d call tags) & use them slightly differently.
    But what I took Tom’s comments to mean were keeping these user entered keywords & tags separate from keywords/extended attributes entered in html files, jpgs etc. not entered by the user. Keeping them apart is something I'd like (although I guess an option to toggle the extended attributes on & off when needed wouldn't do any harm).


    We are also working - hopefully with some other applications that are into tagging - on a standard method of setting user entered tags that we will open source, especially if Apple does not come up with a tagging standard for Snow Leopard. It involves extended attributes and some spotlight database calls.

    That sounds promising if Apple don’t sort it out in Snow Leopard.


    Off-topic… Jono? as in iconaholic Jono? as in the one who suggested the Silverflow UI for Quicksilver that Julius Eckert is working on? If so, hey, it's even nicer to have you here! I like your work!

    Yea, I've worked a little with Julius on the SilverFlow UI & also the Bezel HUD one. SilverFlow has stalled a bit though. Could do with finishing it off really.
    And thanks :)
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2008
     
    So Leap uses Spotlight comments like most/all other tagging apps.

    Optionally. I've disabled that feature in Leap, for reasons mentioned in a bunch of other posts on multiple forums.

    I also use words or keywords in Spotlight comments without a prefix, as well as ones with the ‘&’ prefix (what I’d call tags) & use them slightly differently.

    Best to make sure any apps you're using that store tags in Spotlight Comments can handle any tag/non-tag data there. Unfortunately there's no one-stop compatibility guide with that information.

    But what I took Tom’s comments to mean were keeping these user entered keywords & tags separate from keywords/extended attributes entered in html files, jpgs etc. not entered by the user. Keeping them apart is something I'd like (although I guess an option to toggle the extended attributes on & off when needed wouldn't do any harm).

    Tom's referring to extended attributes in a stricter sense, as they're defined in Extended file attributes - Wikipedia, etc. They can be associated with, but not "entered in html files, …".

    Keywords (in the Spotlight kMDItemKeywords sense) are normally embedded directly in files (as I understand it; corrections welcomed), both explicitly (by users) and implicitly/automatically (by software). That's different than Spotlight Comments (kMDItemFinderComment in Spotlight), which are stored in (at least) .DS_Store files and extended attributes (on Leopard) that may or may not be preserved when files they're associated with are copied/renamed/modified. And we've got a third item, Tags, that's not as formally defined as Keywords and Comments (and no corresponding Spotlight attribute) which has led tagging apps to piggyback on the latter.

    Tom's comment indicates Ironic is pursuing another method for storing/sharing tags that uses extended attributes (xattrs), which would keep from mixing them with Keywords and Comments that some of us (myself included) would prefer remain untainted and usable for other "intended" purposes. Matt, on the other hand, seems comfortable with Tags (defined/recognizable by '&' prepending, for instance) being merged with Keywords and Comments (for now). There's also an argument for making Tags and Keywords equivalent, which some apps might still attempt, but as Tom mentioned: There is no way to set kMDItemKeywords on an arbitrary file.

    Is that clarifying or confusing (or both), Jono? :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorJono
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
     
    [Jono];
    So Leap uses Spotlight comments like most/all other tagging apps.

    [sjk]:
    Optionally. I've disabled that feature in Leap, for reasons mentioned in a bunch of other posts on multiple forums.

    In that case what other method does it use if you disable Spotlight comments?


    [sjk]:
    Is that clarifying or confusing (or both), Jono? :)

    Very helpful, thanks :)
    • CommentAuthorsjk
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
     
    In that case what other method does it use if you disable Spotlight comments?

    Currently none. I summarized my main reason for not mixing Leap, et.al. file tags with Spotlight Comments in this recent comment (@ DEVONtechnologies User Forum):

    I don't want to be diligently vigilant for known and unforeseeable issues when using Spotlight Comments for tags.

    YMMV. :)

    Very helpful, thanks :)

    You're welcome.

    I wish it was obvious which tagging-related terminology to use that won't muddle the discussions. :)

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